Listen on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, or watch on YouTube.
In this episode of the Proclaim Peace podcast, hosts Jennifer Thomas and Patrick Mason are joined by professor Ashley Fraser to discuss the principles of building Zion, drawing insights from the small yet impactful book of 4 Nephi in the Book of Mormon. They reflect on the profound message this scripture holds and the importance of creating a harmonious community among “ites.” The hosts discuss the necessity of building Zion in a way that resonates with their own cultural contexts. Join them as they welcome guest Ashley Fraser for a deeper exploration of these themes and how we can all contribute to building a peaceful and joyful community.
Timestamps
[00:02:01] Valuing our differences in society.
[00:06:12] Personal peace and alignment.
[00:08:05] Peace and alignment in Zion.
[00:11:40] The gospel as community.
[00:15:06] In-groups and out-groups.
[00:19:04] True belonging and diversity.
[00:24:24] Power and privilege in Christ.
[00:28:08] Co-creation with Christ.
[00:30:57] Building inclusive communities.
[00:36:12] Cultural humility in faith communities.
[00:40:42] Building Zion through humility.
[00:42:38] Building peace and avoiding violence.
[00:46:22] The power of hope.
Transcript
(00:03-00:05) Jennifer Thomas: Welcome to the Proclaim Peace Podcast. I'm Jennifer Thomas.
(00:06-00:12) Patrick Mason: And I'm Patrick Mason. And this is the podcast where we apply principles of the gospel and read the Book of Mormon to become better peacemakers.
(00:15-00:21) Jennifer Thomas: I am so excited to be here today with my close friend and co-conspirator, Patrick Mason.
(00:22-00:25) Patrick Mason: This is the kind of conspiracy that we like, Jen, right?
(00:28-00:39) Jennifer Thomas: These are the good kind of conspiracies, people. Conspiracies to do good and build Zion. And that's mostly what we're here to talk about today, which is an ongoing, an episode in our ongoing series about how to build Zion.
(00:39-01:08) Patrick Mason: Yeah, and I'm excited about this. And I'm really glad that we're spending multiple episodes on this, even though Fourth Nephi itself is a little bitty book within the Book of Mormon, the ideas in it and the challenge that it gives to us is outsized, far beyond the number of words that are on the page. So I'm glad that we can spend some time on it and really reflect on what it means to build Zion.
(01:09-02:36) Jennifer Thomas: I agree. And when I think about this very small chapter, and I've shared this with you, Patrick, that I am always reminded of the Tolstoy quote where he said, all happy families are alike. Each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way. And I think sometimes that's why in the scriptures, we see how the unhappy people are all unhappy in their own way. And maybe they make for more interesting stories and illustrative ways for us to learn. But if we want to build a happy family, if we want to build Zion, it's going to need to be something that we can build on our own and build in a way that is reflective of our culture. And we'll talk a little bit about that today with our guest, Ashley Fraser. One of the things, however, that I do want to kind of start out with as we talk about this particular portion of Zion is that both Patrick and I feel like this is perhaps right now one of our biggest reaches. We're going to talk a little bit today about heights. And we live in a society that is increasingly embracing the ite nature and is, I think, increasingly running the risk of moving towards the violence that can sometimes flow from starting to think of the people around us as very different from us and very other to us. And so we want to do a lot of exploration today about what it would look like to actually live in a society where we valued our differences and brought them to the fore without erasing them, but also didn't allow them to be manipulated and used to build conflict and increase violence.
(02:37-03:30) Patrick Mason: I think that's right. We live in a moment where we're in a bit of a tug of war with these competing claims. On the one hand saying, oh, there's no such thing as identities. Your identities don't really matter. And on the other hand, all that matters is identity. And you should construct everything about your life based on identity that's defined against somebody else's. identity or set of ideas and values. And sometimes those two discourses actually overlap in some weird ways. So I think it is really important for us to, if we're going to talk about building Zion, if we're going to talk about being peacemakers in the mold of Jesus Christ, what does it look like for us to actually have certain identities, which we all do, to do so and to orient those towards the cause of building Zion?
(03:32-05:50) Jennifer Thomas: It's very easy to have a peaceful society where everything is homogenous, or at least it's easier where people have the same cultural, social, emotional, and kind of financial profiles. But it's harder to do that when we live with differences. However, Imagine growing up in a place where the only thing you had to eat was restaurants that offered you mashed potatoes and steak, or growing up in a place where there was a wide range of food available to you in exceptional restaurants. And that's one of the ways I like to think about Zion, is it's the opportunity to eat out every night doing totally different things while also maintaining my own sense of what I cook at home or what I'm good at or who I am. And so we just are excited to have this conversation today with Ashley Frazier to explore what a Zion community that is built on a really healthy relationship with AYTS would look like. Ashley has a PhD in Family and Human Development from Arizona State University and she is a professor in the School of Family Life at BYU and has been there since 2021. She herself has very different identities that blend together to make her a rich and interesting person She's a first-generation college student and the granddaughter of Mexican and Filipino immigrants. So those are things that we don't necessarily think about in the same family. She teaches human development and moral development and advanced cross-cultural development at BYU. Her research focuses on hope, what helps kids hope and how it affects marginalized communities and how they can fight discrimination and move up the socioeconomic ladder by using hope. She studies racism and discrimination in majority populations and has a contacts lab with Dr. Andrea Bushby at BYU. to explore how parents talk to their children about race and class. And we are really excited to have her with us today. I've heard her speak before and she has a deep testimony of the importance of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the role that it can play in helping us to not only transcend these differences, but to help make them a beautiful part of tightly woven tapestry of human experience that we would like to see emerge as part of Zion. Welcome, Ashley. We'd love to start today with you with a very deceptively simple question that we ask all of our guests, which is simply, how do you define peace?
(05:52-08:03) Ashley Fraser: Oh, what a great question. I've actually been reflecting on this thought or this definition a lot, right? And as an academic, I mean, I could spend years debating with you three words in a definition. And so this is really hard work for me, actually, but also sets me on fire. For me, peace exists in different contexts and in different spaces, right? So if we're thinking about peace in a community, peace in a nation, I think that is certainly one thing. But I'm gonna go in this direction of personal peace, what is individualized personal peace. And for me, that is all about alignment. It's kind of a key word for me. That personal peace is where you know your values. You know what you value, and so it kind of involves this process of coming to understand what your values are. And then it's a matter of going through and figuring out what you're doing every day, your actions, your behaviors, your thoughts, the institutions you belong to, your relationships. How are those aligning with your values, right? With the core of who you are. And if what is happening on the outside explicitly is aligning well with what you truly believe is the heart of you, if that is aligned, then in that moment, you can experience peace. And I think that that part of that, too, definitely comes from my background as a psychologist, as a neurobiologist. To an extent, I also understand dissonance in the brain, right? And this idea that even more than being conscious of when you're feeling peace, I think that more often we're conscious of when we're not. And it is this idea of dissonance, right? And it's because you are out of alignment. It's because something at the core of you, the heart of you, and that can be informed, right, by your faith, by your family, It's not in alignment with what is actually being expressed and how you're presenting yourself to the world. And I think that that dissonance, that lack of peace, is actually even more telling. So that's, again, a very wordy way to say, I think that peace is all about alignment between what's on the inside and what's happening on the outside.
(08:05-08:58) Jennifer Thomas: So I actually think that is a fantastic definition given what we want to talk about together today, because we brought you on to sort of explore with us what Zion can be and should look like. And I think for all of us, what we dream of in terms of Zion is just this sense of alignment, right? With ourselves, with God, with others, where the institutions and everything that we're participating in is sort of representative of who we really truly want to be in our best selves. And so today we're really grateful that you're here to talk with us together about how we can bring Zion within our reach. And I wanted to start by asking you to share a little bit of something I've heard you say in the past, that you have to understand what Zion is before you can begin to build it. And so I'm wondering if you would start us out today with your definition of Zion so that we know what your vision of perfect alignment looks like.
(08:59-13:22) Ashley Fraser: Sure. And this is going to be a lot of me processing out loud, too, right? I'm very much in the messy middle of this right along with you trying to figure out what this actually looks like in practice. On paper, it's often easy, right? The blueprint is there and you think you understand it, and then you actually start to build the house. and then you realize that you didn't quite get it, right? Or that you, there are other factors that come into play. So this idea of what is Zion. So oftentimes, right, we think of Zion as a place, right? And when I've talked about this before too, I even, I've had people think about the Zion National Park. Right? It's like literally a physical place. Or oftentimes we think of it in this ideal of when the Savior comes, right, we will gather, there will be a spot, and that will be Zion. And I actually really try to fight the idea that Zion is a physical location and that it's actually more of a people. Right? And I was even thinking about this on my, I was driving into my office here at BYU today, and I was thinking about how You know, Zion is Christ. Like, each of us is Zion. And something that I have my students do often as they think about the gospel, I'm going to talk about what is the gospel, and then I'm going to relate this to what is Zion. My students, right, because I teach at BYU, I teach large classes, 500 freshmen. And a lot of them have recently or are going to recently serve missions. And the way that they think about the gospel, oftentimes, especially when they're right off a mission, or about to go, is that it's this thing that is external to themselves. And we use this language in our culture, right, that I'm going to go share the gospel. I'm going to go share the gospel. I'm going to spread the gospel. The gospel is good news. And it's this thing that is external to themselves, right? It's almost like it's this thing, and sometimes at its worst, it feels like something they have to sell, right? Almost this like used car salesman kind of thing, like I have to go sell this thing. And then at its better, I see often students say that, oh yeah, I'm gonna share the gospel and it's this gift, right? They think of it more like a present or a beautiful cake or something, right? I'm gonna go share this gift. And then I start to talk to them about experiences that I've had as an academic that runs in very diverse circles, especially as someone who studies racism and bias, political bias, that I haven't always been someone who could share the gospel even though we're commissioned to, and I believe that, in a lot of spaces, right? And so I really came to this understanding that you just have to hold up a mirror because the gospel is you, right? And so sharing the gospel is actually just being you, right? You are the gospel. And I tell my students, you will be in spaces routinely where it's just you, right? And you have to be the gospel. And then, in my experience, others will recognize that in you, right? And ultimately, too, we can think about that in context of taking upon you the name of Christ, right? And that way, you're being like Jesus, right? You're being like Jesus. He is the gospel. You are the gospel. We're doing this thing in community and in relationship. And others, as we gather Israel, are naturally drawn. to that light and to that peace. And I think of it, it's the same as Zion. You are Zion. It exists in you. There's this element, too, of it will not always be comfortable. And as you bring this idea of alignment, and I thought, yeah, peace is about alignment. Alignment is not always gonna be comfortable. And I think a lot, when we sing, I'm trying to be like Jesus, or I'm a child of God, but especially this, I'm trying to be like Jesus. I think less about being cleansed from sin, even, and more about, no, that means you're gonna have to sit in it. You're gonna have to sit in some discomfort, and you are gonna have to experience some misalignment in other areas of your life so that you can truly get to peace in here. And when you have people who then are trying to do this together in relationship and process, that that is the work of building Zion and trying to be like Jesus. So that was a very long-winded answer there.
(13:22-14:55) Patrick Mason: I actually like that a lot. I think it resonates really well with the way, the different ways that the Doctrine and Covenants in particular talks about science. Sometimes it is a particular place, but just as often as not, it's a people. It's the pure in heart. It's a state of being, right? So, it's all of these different things. And so, of course, we're here today focused especially on the Book of Mormon and on Fourth Nephi and the way that it talks about it, however briefly. And I loved what you were talking about, Ashley, in terms of the way that you move in very diverse circles professionally and maybe in your personal life as well. And this is, I think, one of the really necessary and interesting but also tricky aspects of thinking about Zion. what does it look like to strive for some kind of unity, a oneness in heart, an alignment that goes beyond just myself in a world of diversity? And in 4th Nephi, it talks about no manner of ites, right? That there weren't Nephites or Lamanites, there are no manner of ites, that they were all just children of Christ. So maybe we can focus on that a little bit and think about that aspect of Zion building. So when you read that verse, or when you reflect on that verse, what does it mean to you to think about what aits are and how we think about that in a Zion context?
(14:55-18:29) Ashley Fraser: Yeah, great question, and something that I like, a thought experiment that I like to do with my students often as we think about in-group, out-group psychology, which is what I study. Yeah, is this idea, will there be ites in heaven? Will, but I phrase it like, will there be in-groups and out-groups in heaven? And let me back up a little bit and talk a little bit about your brain, okay? Your brain loves a shortcut. That's just a universal truth. Your brain will always, from the time you are born, even before in utero, your brain is learning to categorize and to put things in file folders and boxes in order to keep you alive, right? It's literally rooted in, you have to be able to quickly and efficiently categorize people to know who will keep you safe, who will feed you, who will jump to your aid in an emergency situation. And so I like to phrase that in terms of the natural man, a little bit something that we actually need to actively try and overcome, but you are wired for this, and you're literally wired to put people in categories and so and to make it right in context of this conversation. And that does absolutely serve a purpose. It's worked well, right? Here we are, we, as a species, right? It does. Yeah, like we're here. And I mean, some are not here, right? There are elements of, there is a weeding process for, you know, groups of animals or whatever, who were not able to adapt and do that well. And so this tendency to see ites, It's normal, it's natural, and something that you can go to when you're feeling like, oh, I shouldn't be doing this, is that literally babies do this. And there are cognitive and developmental processes that are essential to survival that this pertains to. So there's no reason to feel guilt, is what I'm trying to say. If children before the age of accountability are designed to do this, then it's just part of humanity. However, as you progress and as you age, what we see with children particularly is that what really matters is not so much that they're doing the categorization, it's the power and the bias and the morality that they're assigning to the categories that actually matters. Does that make sense? So especially as we get into middle childhood, and as I actually try and study this in my labs, is what's happening at different ages when it comes to how kids are assigning meaning and morality to these different groups. And I particularly look at low-class folks, families that don't have a lot of money. And I look at folks who are of different race, ethnicity. And we see that middle school is a very rough time of life. It turns out eighth grade is kind of the armpit of life in this, in this realm. Okay. Um, that, uh, kids start to get real mean and, and for self social self-preservation, as they start to really understand social groups and see who has power, um, they start to really develop biases. Now we know it starts before that, but, um, it's, it's there, kind of in that middle childhood realm. And so this is when I would say the real, the meanness, the power differential, the sin, dare I say, that comes along with categorization.
(18:29-18:32) Jennifer Thomas: I think you can use that word. Yeah, absolutely.
(18:32-21:31) Ashley Fraser: And we have repentance to do, surely, right? And also, I like to really frame repentance as change and growth. We have change and growth that we need to address in that area. Um, so getting back to this, your, your question of, of what the fourth, fourth Nephi, right? And what does it look like to have different groups that can come together in unity? Um, it's, I think it's okay to have ites, to have groups, um, that are different, right? Diversity is actually the foundation of belonging. You literally cannot have belonging and unity without diversity because True belonging means that you're allowed to show up as yourself. And you're allowed to embrace the best things about your culture and your perspective, even the foods you like, the movies you like to watch, right? Your love for Broadway show tunes, like that should be allowed. Imagine how sad it would be, right, if we didn't have Wicked, right? Or if we didn't have some of these gorgeous differences among us. And true belonging, true Zion, looks like things are valued equally. So I think that as we get into the definition of, we have to get back into like, yeah, what is actually an ite? And I think that when we're saying no ites among us, I think that it means that there is not, there's not a different level of social power, love, belonging among these different groups, right? It's okay. In fact, I asked my students when I was Prepping for this, I asked some of my students about this thought exercise, will there be heights in heaven? Will there be different groups? And I want to read what one of my students said. She said, I want to retain my differences when I'm in heaven. I do want to be an ite. This was a Latina student of mine. She said, I still want to be Latina, and I still want to love kimchi and anime, and I still want to do those things. What I don't want is to be discriminated against for being Latina and for loving kimchi and anime. I don't want to be unfriended because I don't fit into someone else's idea of what it means to be good or have less opportunity or social connection or chance for creativity in heaven because I love a certain thing. or because I love a strong smelling food, she said. What I do want in heaven is to be the best version of my unique self as negotiated in sacred relationship with my heavenly parents and I want to be loved for that. So in answer to your question, I think that it's just fine for there to be ites in heaven as long as all ites have equal rights. What a thought. What a thought. And so I think that as we do kind of deconstruct this idea of no, the phrase, no ites among us. I think it's no hate among us, right? It's no discrimination among us. It actually has everything to do with love.
(21:32-22:48) Jennifer Thomas: So I'm also actually really intrigued with the way you've linked that to power too, because to me, it's very easy to say, I'm happy to let someone eat kimchi, as long as they're not doing it within my nose or whatever, you know, if I don't like kimchi, which I think kimchi is fine. But I think what's harder for us is to figure out how to give up power. And I think that's sort of the natural man inclination is we tend to, if I think about the most problematic ites that we, you know, the definitions of people that we've, I guess, developed in our societies, it's often been purely for the motive of extracting things from other people or having power over them. And so I'm really interested to have you share with us today, what do you think are some of the gospel messages and strategies that if we are people living in a society, either where we have power or would like to get power over other people, what are ways that the gospel of Jesus Christ and this vision of Zion can push against us? And what can we turn to as an antidote to that, I guess, to help ourselves reject that?
(22:48-23:09) Patrick Mason: And can I offer a friendly amendment for you to think about, Ashley, as you think about that question, is whether power is inherently bad, right? God has power. Jesus has power, right? So I just want to piggyback off of Jen's question to think about this relationship to power, but not automatically assume that all power is created equal.
(23:10-24:35) Ashley Fraser: Oh, absolutely. I love discussing power, especially power in relation to Jesus Christ. And privilege, right, which we, that word has been polarized and used in a lot of different ways, and I know it can trigger some people. But I do like to think about what Jesus Christ, if we really believe, right, that Jesus Christ, half God, right, came and was the most powerful being to ever come, so then he was also the most privileged, right? And what did he do with it? What did he do with his privilege? And he used it to help and bless us, right? And to save us and redeem us and walk with us. And so I absolutely believe, and I do work in circles and spaces with BYU students who do have some of the greatest amount of opportunity and power and will have that. in our society, and so I often try and challenge them. How are you spending that, right? How are you spending that power? It's not bad to have power. Jesus Christ had the most power, and we're asked to be like Jesus. And so what are you gonna do with it? And that's a great question for all of us. Even the three of us sitting here, we have a tremendous amount of power, comparatively to most, and what are we doing with it? I think that's kind of the golden question.
(24:36-25:06) Jennifer Thomas: And what kinds of power are we taking on? Because I think I completely agree with what you said about Christ being the most powerful, but he didn't use that in the ways that we tend to think of power in earthly power, in terms of accumulating money or accumulating political authority. So while he was the most powerful person, he didn't manifest power in the ways that we traditionally think of power being manifested. So I think that's important for us all to realize as we try to sort of pursue godly power, what does that actually look like?
(25:06-25:57) Ashley Fraser: Yeah, and that will be different for each of us, right? And try and also, yeah, challenge people to think about, yeah, what is your mission? Yeah, what gifts have you uniquely been given? What can you do on this earth that literally no one else can do? And lean into that, especially in a world where we have so many opportunities and so many paths before us that we could take. And so what's the thing that only you can do? And lean into that and let Christ and others take the load of some of those other paths and some of those other responsibilities. Because what I also see a lot in this generation, especially of youth, is massive overwhelm and anxiety and thinking that they have to do it all. And I routinely have to remind myself first and then them that you are not Jesus, right? And you're not Jesus. And we have to actually, this gets back to the idea of Zion, that we have to do this in community.
(25:58-26:34) Patrick Mason: I mean, yeah, there is a sense sometimes we say this, sometimes the compliments we give people can actually become burdens. I mean, I even hear myself sometimes saying to my students and others like, oh, you're going to clean up the mess that we made, right, or your generation is going to save us. Actually, when I pause and think about it, it's like, no, I don't think the gen alpha or whatever we're calling it, I don't think they're the savior. I think Jesus is the savior, right? So yeah, even the words that we use sometimes do put burdens on people. If we're trying to empower them, actually, there can be ways that that becomes a burden.
(26:34-32:01) Ashley Fraser: Yes, our language is so meaningful. And we do use these these phrases even a lot of times I think we frame things as lose yourself in service or oftentimes we don't talk about boundaries to and filling your own cup and being you know, truly aligned with Christ means that you take care of yourself, yeah, and you understand your individualized and unique gifts and mission. And we also love a hero in our society, right? We love the Harry Potter. We love this idea that you're gonna be the one, and it's often youth in our novels, in our media, where it's like, you're gonna come and you're gonna actually save the world. And sometimes we mix that up with like, actually, no, that's an archetype of Christ. And yes, we absolutely want to try and reflect that and do our job. that you don't actually have to be Christ, right? He's Christ. Like he did that. And getting back to this idea of power too, something I like to say too is that as I know him and I'm so proud of him. And sometimes people think, oh, that's really weird. You're putting yourself kind of on par or even this idea that you can be proud of Christ, that you're like above him, that you can be proud of him. And I just, I think, no, I absolutely worship him. I adore him. I'm so thankful for him. And also, I am so proud of him, because he used his power. He had the biggest mission of all of us, and he did it. And I think that we can absolutely rejoice in that. And I think that Zion will have this element of us being shoulder to shoulder with Christ, doing the work alongside. And he will be proud of us, and we will be proud of him. And what a beautiful relationship that can be, because something else I see commonly in this rising generation is that they know a lot about Christ, but they don't know Christ. And they don't know how to hear him in a way that isn't very hierarchical, kind of like asking yes or no questions, or saying, tell me what to do with my life, instead of being able to have a relationship where you can really say, I have this idea about my life, about my major, about someone that I'm really interested in dating, What do you think about that? And I hope for my students that then they can get something back that's along the lines of like, here's an idea for you, or here's a little whisper of a thought, or here's a little strain of peace that you might feel about this thing. What do you think? And you can enter into a co-creation with Christ about your life. And ultimately, I think that that's what Zion is, is we're doing that with Christ, but we're also doing that with each other. And again, this has been a very long winding way to get back to your question, Jen. But again, you have to have diversity and you have to have creativity in order to do that. And you have to have the unique voice of you, of Ashley, of Jen, of Patrick, in order to create this beautiful Zion experience. And as I said in a previous presentation that I think you're referencing, I was talking to a religion department professor about that here at BYU, and he said, I won't name him, but he said, you know, 4 Nephi is kind of the yada, yada, yada of the Book of Mormon. Because, and he said, and it's because we don't, I want to get it right. So I'm going to actually look up his quote right now so that I have it. He said that the reason that he thinks that the reason 4 Nephi is so short and the reason that we don't have very much concrete information on what Zion actually looked like in that context is because construction and maintenance of Zion is a local affair. and not only local in space, but local in time, and we are living in a very different time than they did in 4 Nephi, and the ambiguity is intended to invite creativity. And so that creativity cannot come about unless Jen is there, and unless Patrick is there, and we are bringing our life experience and our unique talents and gifts to that space, that diversity, right, that then has to be the foundation of true belonging, and bringing people in rather than closing them out. Because I also think that oftentimes Zion has been pictured in the past as somewhere with walls. That it's like there's these big walls, and we're going to gather, you know, the righteous will gather, and everyone else will be on the other side of the walls, and there might even be weapons there. And I had a good friend of mine, as we were talking about this concept, she said, you know, if that really is the case, and it's a very homogenous people within those walls. She's like, I'd actually rather be on the outside of the wall. I actually would not want to be in that place. And this was a black friend of mine as well, right? And we were in discussion in a very white space where people were talking about this idea that we would gather in Zion and we would put up a wall and it was going to be a very homogenous community. And she said, yeah, you know, actually I would want no part of that. And that really hit me strongly. This is my, yeah, my same friend who we talk about how everyone wants to live in Zion, but no one wants to build it. And oftentimes we think that Christ is just going to come and fix it. And dare I say, some folks might even say that he's going to help put up the walls. And I think that if that's your thought, that that's how you think it's going to look, that actually you may not be there.
(32:02-32:38) Patrick Mason: Let me ask one question about that because we definitely want to talk about what it looks like to build Zion, right? To build these kinds of communities. But let me ask one question that I think may bridge some of this. ties up what we've been talking about in terms of identity and ites. It's interesting, in that verse in 4th Nephi, it says there are no robbers or murderers, neither were there Lamanites nor any manner of ites, but they were in one, the children of Christ and heirs to the kingdom of God. Is it a problem to be Christ-ites?
(32:39-33:00) Jennifer Thomas: So can you explain that, Patrick? Because I was just thinking as she was talking that that's the in-group, like as she was describing all of us being happy as we worked with Christ and aligning with Him. I'm like, that's the in-group right there. That's an in-group that anyone can join, but that brings you great, just a really powerful sense of identity and happiness participating in.
(33:01-33:50) Patrick Mason: But I've got, and you all have Jewish friends who don't wanna be in that group. I have Hindu friends and Muslim friends and atheist friends who don't wanna be, or even what we call Christian friends who don't wanna be in my little corner of this in-group, right? This tiny little group of Latter-day Saints. So even, so in a way we say, oh, the solution is Christ. That's the identity to solve all identities. But of course, we all know that not everybody is part of that identity. In fact, a minority of human beings are part of that identity. And it's sometimes been wielded as a weapon against other people. So how do we think about this? How do we think about our Christian identity as being a solution without just compounding the problem?
(33:50-41:14) Ashley Fraser: Such a good question. back to this idea too that yeah I've run in a lot of circles like the ones you're talking about and dearly love and have holy envy even right of folks in these other faith communities, different communities in general. Don't put God in a box is this thought right and this idea too that Oh, morality, because I also I teach moral development and I study moral ethics and morality. And oftentimes I with my students, I say, what is morality? And they go to this place of like, that's that thing I learned at FSY. Right. And I say, you know, think of I think if I went and said that at an academic conference, if I said it more when I'm teaching moral development at an academic conference, and I and I said, I just did FSY. Would that work? No. Right. Morality. and light and truth are so much bigger than that. So while I can absolutely retain my testimony, right, in the work that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is doing, and I value my membership incredibly highly, right, one of the dearest pearls in my life, I can also absolutely say that there is room, right, there is room our understanding of what Zion is, if it is the idea of humans, just humans, coming together, existing in peace, learning from each other, rejoicing in each other's strengths, differences, that there is absolutely room for so many different faith traditions, racial, ethnic backgrounds, identities, historical understandings, that different people have political identities, that there is space for everyone there. And so I think that as the three of us, and a lot I'm sure of these listeners, do identify as Christites, I think that part of being a Christite is absolutely saying that you don't have to have that identity in order to come and be in Zion with me. Absolutely. I think that that's key. And I actually think that as a faith community, we need to get to a much more welcoming place in order to earn the right to say that we've achieved any level of Zion, because ultimately it's about love. And if we think of the atonement of Jesus Christ, which is like, right, the core of our doctrine and our understanding as the greatest act of empathy that there ever was, of literally just sitting in the discomfort of Jesus Christ doing the work that we also are called to do, of walking in everyone's shoes and knowing what that felt like if we're really called to do that, then I think that Zion, it looks a lot like being willing to also do that work and just sit with people who are not Christites, who are not Jacobites, Zoramites, BYUites, and do that. So let me talk a little bit about what that looks like, especially with children. in trying to get to that space. We use the term a lot, cultural competence, as researchers. It's like, oh, you really need to be culturally competent before you go into another space, and I actually really don't like that term. I don't think you ever can be truly culturally competent, because I am not, right, I am not Gen, right, and I am not Jewish. I'm Filipino, but I'm not Chinese, right, so I don't know that I can ever truly be culturally competent in those other identities or spaces, but I can be culturally humble. And so I think we need to embrace cultural humility instead. And what cultural humility looks like is, first, you get all the education that you can. You do your own work. And you try and understand that culture. You try and understand that group as best as you can. And that does not mean that you go and try and practice on someone. and say, hey, I'm really trying not to be racist. Can I practice my anti-racism on you? No, that's not what you do. YouTube, what a gift. ChatGPT, what a gift. Children's media, there's so many great books and shows now that are out there. They do exist. They don't always get a lot of attention that are trying to help you do the work of educating yourself in a space where you're not actively harming other people, particularly other people that are already in marginalized communities. Hey, so you do your own work. And then when you do go into that space, we're gonna get back to this idea of power, Jen. You make sure that you are not putting yourself in a higher position of power. You are there, and Christ, right, ultimately is the example of this. You wash the feet. You get in there and you even up front can say something like, I recognize that I don't know much about this culture or about your family or about your faith, but I want to learn and I want you to correct me if I get anything wrong and I hope that you can forgive me. as I will make mistakes, because you will. And this is just like Nephi, building the boat. He didn't know what he was doing, but he had to pick up the hammer. And at some point, you've got to pick up the hammer, and you've got to start. And so if you can come into that, though, with humility, with consent. I'm a big fan of consent and compensation. So you say, can I be in this space? What can I do for you? How can I compensate you in some kind of way if you are actively teaching me a lesson? So you can do that yourself and through media, right? First, you do your best work you can and with your children. And you can go into spaces. You can go to cultural celebrations, attend a different ward, you know, get yourself into a club, a dance crew, right? My children do Latin dance. And even though, you know, I'm Latina and multiracial, but I don't always feel like that is a space where I can be completely competent, even though my grandmother is Mexican. We do go into that space very humbly, and we love connecting with those people. But it's definitely in a position where I'm not trying to say, and I'm going to teach you about your culture. No, I'm there to learn, and to listen, and to empathize, and to try and be like Jesus in that way, just to learn. You can do those things, right? Educate yourself. Definitely expose children, yourself, to a lot of different diverse perspectives. That's one thing that you can also do. And then, yeah, just really embrace this humility aspect that we are here to learn. It's a classic academic phrase, right? The more you learn, the less you know. And I think that that is absolutely true when it comes to building Zion, and you'll find that building Zion sounds like it's gonna be this concrete thing where the brick wall just goes up, right, or you're doing your own inner work, this alignment, and it's just gonna be linear, and it's not. In truth, life's a mess, and human development is a mess, and it's up and down and backwards and forwards, and it's all over the place, and so you have to be able to forgive yourself, ask for forgiveness from others. That is literally building Zion, and ultimately, too, that's repentance. That's what repentance is.
(41:14-42:10) Jennifer Thomas: So when I think about myself, I have a very different version or vision of what Zion should look like now than I did when I first became enamored of the concept of Zion. in my early 20s. And to me, I think part of building Zion, at least for me, has been the realization that just like you said, I have to be humble. And mostly I have to be curious, because I have to pick up the hammer, I have to set out and get to work. But I also have to be very open to having God help me design the plans or figure out what my job is, because otherwise all I'm building is my ideal version of what the world should look like, which isn't Zion, right? Like without that humility and this curiosity, all of my building work is going to be in vain. I'm just going to be building sort of Jen's ideal version of the world. So I really appreciate you sharing those ideas about humility and curiosity.
(42:10-42:38) Patrick Mason: Jen, I really like that, just in the sense that if we think we're going to build Zion in our own image, it's not really building Zion. And so it has to be, and maybe that's part of what it means, no manner of heights, which means I'm not creating it after my manner of heights. It's got to include everybody's experiences and perspectives and the way that they come. I like that a lot.
(42:38-43:26) Jennifer Thomas: I do think it's worth addressing the fact that AIDS has the potential to lead us towards violence. It's the opposite of peace, right? Like, in its worst form, it is the cause of an enormous amount of violence. And so that's one question I would have for you, Ashley, is from your perspective, and given your professional training, if we truly want to avoid Ites in the worst sense, and if we truly want to be a people of building peace, what are the steps that we can individually take to move ourselves and our society away from the violence that can result when we become I guess, too enmeshed in our own identities. And like you said, that eighth grade hatred of other identities.
(43:28-46:01) Ashley Fraser: So, yeah, I'll mention two things briefly. One is your media. You really need to watch your media. And a lot of times, too, when we think of violence, we think of hitting, biting, kicking. But actually, most violence that I encounter is verbal. And it looks like getting siloed into an algorithm. that dehumanizes other groups of people. So watch your media. And then secondly, on a practical thing, if you have someone in your life that you love and trust, who feel like knows you and really has your well-being at heart, Ask them what you can improve in that area. Because we are terrible judges of ourselves, right? And so, sometimes it's your mom, sometimes it's not, okay? I find a lot of people though, that's the place they go to. And say, you know what, I really wanna have an honest conversation, or maybe it's your friend that's very different from you. Someone that's not a Christ-ite, or someone who is of a different political orientation than you, and you say, I know you love me, and I'm actually really looking, maybe the year 2025, to improve. Can you actually, in a context of love and a framework of faith, can you point out some things that you think that I could do to improve my peace building? And again, make sure you're in a safe space. Say, can you be a soft place to land, and I'll be a soft place to land for you. Can you point out some things for me? And then also, you do that and then you take that to the Lord. And I can guarantee you too that the Spirit is also always ready to do that for you as well. When you take that to the Lord. Because like you said, we're bad judges of ourselves. And also what a boring Zion, right? If it was just Ashley's idea of Zion. So yeah, we need each other desperately. Let me say one last thing. I know we're at time here. Have a little hope. Have some hope. That's the other thing that I do is I study hope. And actually, when you look at the data over the last 200 years, the world has gotten profoundly better. Better in life expectancy, better in income, better actually at violence, at not being violent. Even so many fewer endangered species, these are things that you don't hear because your brain is trained to be based in fear and not in hope. So I would say, look for the good. actually get some facts on what is actually happening in the world. We're progressing so well. Truthfully, there is so much reason to have joy and to have hope and that the work of building Zion can truly be extraordinary and joyful and hopeful. And I'm excited even thinking about doing the work. So try and hang on to that.
(46:02-46:10) Patrick Mason: Thank you. That is a phenomenal way to end, Ashley. But before we really, really end, I love that message of hope. I mean, I think.
(46:10-46:10) Jennifer Thomas: I agree.
(46:10-46:15) Patrick Mason: Faith, hope, and love, right? Sometimes we neglect hope in our emphasis on faith and love.
(46:16-46:21) Jennifer Thomas: And I don't think Zion is buildable if we don't have this robust sense of hope in ourselves that something better is possible.
(46:22-46:43) Patrick Mason: Sure. Absolutely. So amen to all of that. So as we close, Ashley, first, just thank you for all of the insights you've brought. I've learned a lot in listening to you. In a world of division and conflict, and there are bad things, even though there are lots of good things too, where do you personally find peace?
(46:44-47:34) Ashley Fraser: Such a good question. You know, I find peace with people. And I often, too, am very cerebral. A lot of us, too, our brains are so fast and quick these days. We want immediate things. We're often, and ideas, and about trying to think about, you know, what am I gonna do? How am I gonna manage all this stress? And I actually find when I'm really just present with people, and I'm just listening to their stories, and I'm just figuring out how I relate to you and how you relate to God and how God talks to you and how that can teach me about how God can talk to me and how we can love each other more fully. And I'm just gonna sit here and be present with you. That's actually when I truly feel the most peace.
(47:34-48:10) Jennifer Thomas: Well, I'm going to say that's actually all I want from Zion. So thank you for sharing that with us. I think, I think truly you've ended not only with where you find peace, but for all of us, what, what the peace of Zion has to offer us, which is the opportunity to be holy and completely with other children of God in a way that is healing and also sort of strengthening for us, which I think is what I think is not only what our heavenly parents intended for us, but what they desire for us. Absolutely. So thank you so much for this conversation. We really, really appreciated having you. Thank you.
(48:13-48:32) Patrick Mason: Thanks everybody for listening today. We really appreciate it. We just want to invite you to subscribe to the podcast and also to rate and review it. We love hearing feedback from listeners, so please email us at podcast@mweg.org. We also want to invite you to think about ways that you can make peace in your life this week. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.
(48:37-48:53) Jennifer Thomas: Thank you for listening to Proclaim Peace, a proud member of the Faith Matters Podcast Network. Faith Matters holds expansive conversations about the restored gospel to accompany individuals on their journey of faith. You can learn more about Faith Matters and check out our other shows at faithmatters.org.