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In this episode of the Proclaim Peace podcast, hosts Jennifer Thomas and Patrick Mason are joined by Melinda Brown to introduce a three-part series focused on the concept of Zion. They emphasize the importance of striving to build Zion as a means to achieve true and lasting peace in a world often filled with conflict and despair. They reflect on the current state of society, acknowledging the challenges and imperfections we face, while also stressing the need for a hopeful vision of a better future. Join them as they explore the principles of the gospel and the teachings of the Book of Mormon to inspire listeners to actively participate in the process of creating Zion.
Timestamps
[00:00:34] Building Zion for lasting peace.
[00:06:21] Defining peace as collaboration.
[00:08:35] The concept of Zion.
[00:12:29] Group projects and mortality.
[00:18:57] Unity as harmony, not unison.
[00:22:21] Eternal principles of heavenly relationships.
[00:25:47] Harmonizing in spiritual community.
[00:29:18] Cultural appreciation through music.
[00:33:14] Generosity in vulnerability and gentleness.
[00:39:55] Friendship as a gospel principle.
[00:41:08] The power of friendship.
[00:47:49] Communion as shared experience.
[00:50:23] Table as a symbol.
[00:54:06] Building Zion with differences.
[00:58:11] Collaboration between body and spirit.
Transcript
(00:03-00:05) Jennifer Thomas: Welcome to the Proclaim Peace podcast. I'm Jennifer Thomas.
(00:06-00:12) Patrick Mason: And I'm Patrick Mason. And this is the podcast where we apply principles of the gospel and read the Book of Mormon to become better peacemakers.
(00:12-00:15) Jennifer Thomas: How are you doing, Patrick?
(00:16-00:17) Patrick Mason: I'm doing great, Jen. How are you doing?
(00:18-00:22) Jennifer Thomas: I'm doing okay. I'm excited about what we're going to talk about today and for the next few episodes.
(00:23-00:23) Patrick Mason: Yeah, me too.
(00:23-00:52) Jennifer Thomas: So for our listeners, we are going to spend the next three episodes talking about Zion. And there are a lot of reasons that we want to do this. And we hope as you listen to these three episodes, you will have a stronger desire to build Zion and to be participants in this process. But for us, this is particularly important in relationship to this podcast because we feel like Zion is the best possible hope we have on this earth of achieving true and lasting peace.
(00:52-02:02) Patrick Mason: Yeah, I mean, I think it's, you know, it's not going to come as a shock to anybody to say we don't live in Zion and that our society, we're a long ways from it. Maybe we always have been, certainly, you know, in my lifetime. I think there's a double-edged sword there, that there can be – it's important for us to be realistic and clear-eyed and open-eyed about the world that we live in and to be engaged in it and to do what we can and not just sort of bury ourselves like an ostrich and bury our head in the sand. But there can also be a certain kind of despair that sets in when we look around at the imperfect, conflict-ridden, violently prone world that we live in. And so I think it's important for us to have a vision of something better and something that we're oriented towards just so that we don't kind of just resign ourselves to the world that we live in.
(02:03-03:20) Jennifer Thomas: I completely agree. And beyond having a vision, we hope that over the course of the next few episodes, you as our listeners will get a sense of that vision. We feel like it's really important to articulate what is possible and lay that out for all of us so that we have something to follow. But beyond a vision, we hope that you will also come away feeling that this is a very real possibility. The Scriptures give us actual evidence—if you are believers, and both Patrick and I are—that these societies have existed before, that they have come out of conflict to a place of great and lasting peace, but that they did that because it mattered to the people who were willing to build those societies. They had experiences, sometimes really traumatic ones, that led them to turn away from violence in the ways of the world and try to turn towards pathways offered by the Prince of Peace. So I guess in addition to just the vision, we hope that you will all come away believing and hoping that this is possible and with some very real examples of how you can start to change your personal behavior. And I think it's going to be different for all of us to start to actualize Zion.
(03:20-04:20) Patrick Mason: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. Our invitation to everybody who listens to the next three episodes is that there will be a lot of inspiring things that you'll hear and a lot of really terrific principles and readings of Scripture that they're offered. But hopefully it becomes an exercise in reflection and meditation in which people open themselves up to what the Spirit might say in terms of how they can start to build Zion and implement these principles in their own lives. in concrete ways. And I will say, Jen, before we dive in, what we're doing here is a little bit, I don't know if subversive is the right way, but let's just say that we're making slightly different editorial decisions than the prophet Mormon did, in the sense that when he talked about this, he did it in like less than 20 verses in 4th Nephi. We're spending a little more real estate on this than he did.
(04:22-06:21) Jennifer Thomas: And we have a reason that we're doing that, and that is because we really do sincerely believe that it's up to us to build Zion. I don't know that even if he had given robust instructions that we would have been able to follow them, because Zion is going to be unique to every time and every people. And so, I think with inspiration and hope and a commitment to the gospel, we have the opportunity to figure out what it will look like now, rather than what it would have looked like then. We hope you will join us in this endeavor, because as believers in peace, we are believers in Zion. So we want to start out our first episode today by welcoming our first Zion guest. Melinda Brown is the author of Eve and Adam, Discovering the Beautiful Balance. She loves deep discussions with faithful women of all ages trying to find joy, even amid life's thorny patches. She has a master's degree in Christian practice from Duke Divinity School. You'll hear a little bit more about that today as she shares some of her experiences related to that, and is currently working on a book about the Temple with Deseret book, which will be called An Endowment of Love, Embracing Christ's Covenant Way of Living and Loving, which will be released this spring. She is a frequent contributor on the Magnify podcast and in LDS Living Magazine, and serves as a Stake Relief Society president and a freshman stake at BYU, where she teaches Temple Plus, a 10-week class about learning to love the temple. And we think as you listen to her, you also kind of get that sense of why she loves the temple, and I think it's for very distinct and Zion-like reasons. She and her husband Doug have four adult children and five grandchildren, and her perfect day would include basically being with all of them, doing pleasant things. Mindy, welcome to the Proclaim Peace podcast. We are beyond delighted to have you with us today. And we would like to go ahead and get started with the question that we ask all of our guests. It's simple, but often is very meaningful for people, which is, how do you define peace?
(06:21-07:01) Melinda Brown: Thanks, Jen. I'm so happy to be here. I would say that I define peace as mutually beneficial collaboration. There's a three-word answer for you. And I think as we discuss things today, that'll kind of flush itself out. But I do have a personal belief that peace at its core is systemic. It actually doesn't mean much individually and on a solo basis. I'd maybe call that calm or quiet. or content, but actual peace, I think, involves other humans. And I think collaboration is really key. So that's the short answer to that.
(07:02-07:06) Jennifer Thomas: Love it when we have a guest that gives us a whole new thing. And that was new and beautiful.
(07:06-07:10) Patrick Mason: So thank you. And in three words, even I can remember three words.
(07:11-07:19) Melinda Brown: Well, that's kind of a policy. I figure the shorter I can get it, the more likely it is to actually last in any way. Land. I don't know. Land, right?
(07:19-07:32) Patrick Mason: No, that's okay. Fantastic. Well, I can't wait over the course of our conversation for you to dive in to unpack what those three words mean. And you may need more than three words to describe those three words.
(07:32-07:36) Melinda Brown: Yeah, that's not my forte. That's where it takes lots of words.
(07:37-08:57) Patrick Mason: Well, as we dive in, so as we've mentioned in the intro, this is part of a series that we're doing about 4th Nephi and the concept of Zion that we find there. And of course, 4th Nephi itself doesn't use the word Zion. It's more of a concept that we get from other places, from the Old Testament, from the Doctrine and Covenants, but it certainly has those concepts in it. But maybe as Latter-day Saints, actually, our most famous verse or description of Zion comes not from 4th Nephi, but rather from Moses chapter 7, which was part of Joseph Smith's translation of Genesis, and he expands the Enoch story. I think it's one of the most important revelations that he received. But he has this incredible verse where he's talking about… the account is talking about Enoch and bringing together all of his people, and it takes them hundreds of years, and then finally, they live in peace. And it says in Moses 7, verse 18, and the Lord called his people Zion, there's that word, because they were of one heart and one mind and dwelt in righteousness. So, what does that verse mean to you?
(08:59-10:16) Melinda Brown: Yeah, well, that's an awesome verse. And I think right there, we see a little bit of maybe doctrinal basis from my contention that peace is systemic, is that he calls it people, not a person. We never read or hear about a Zion person, right? It's always a Zion people. And I think that to me, especially in the last few years, that verse has taken on a new, flavor and magnificence and beauty because I spent a couple of years at Duke Divinity School and I think one of my very biggest takeaways, I mean I loved truly every single thing about that experience, but maybe the biggest takeaway of all is how effectively all of our Christian siblings embrace the idea and the metaphor of the body of Christ. I mean, they talk about it constantly. And frankly, I think they do a better job internalizing it than a lot of us in our personal LDS culture sometimes do. And it's become just so prevalent to me. I mean, it was kind of a joke among the other LDS students and myself that we'd always say, if you don't know the answer, just say body of Christ.
(10:17-10:19) Melinda Brown: Like that just was always the right answer.
(10:19-10:25) Patrick Mason: Kind of like for us, it's always pray and read your scriptures.
(10:25-10:35) Melinda Brown: Exactly. Well, and isn't that interesting because we tend toward this individualized answer and they are clearly leaning towards the communal answer.
(10:36-10:40) Patrick Mason: And even though I think in our DNA, it's the exact opposite, actually.
(10:41-10:49) Melinda Brown: Well, sometimes, yes. But yeah, I mean, it's an interesting, it's an organizational behavior.
(10:49-10:50) Patrick Mason: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
(10:50-12:18) Melinda Brown: Anyway, keep going. Yeah, I just, I think, You know, they give other little clues that have really stuck with me and that have caused me to experience our cultural leanings a little bit differently and with a broader perspective for which I am phenomenally grateful for. And for example, one of those is their use of the word communion. I mean, the very fact that they would, many of them, depending on the denomination, would refer to their partaking of the emblems of the Lord's Supper as communion, which is inherently this collective word, is just really different, right? And so I think the whole notion of this one heart and one mind to me is recognizing that we're all part of the body of Christ and Christ is the heart and mind. We're the finger and the toes and the ear and the vocal cord or whatever, right? All the different pieces, but to me it's become that recognition that he's got those key organs under control. We don't need to worry about being the mind. or the heart. We just do it his way and just like stay in our lane, do our part, and it works together really well, you know? Anyway, I think that's how I'd elaborate on that.
(12:19-13:46) Jennifer Thomas: So I actually really appreciate that because I think it, particularly in terms of the mind, one of the questions about one heart and one mind is what does that look like and who, I mean, that's one of the questions I've always had is who's controlling that, right? Where does the element of control, who's doing all the thinking about that? And this is the first time I've ever thought about that way. So I really appreciate this idea that it is Christ's mind that we are trying to bring ourselves into communion with and into alignment with. I have a question that sort of relates to that, I think, and we can transition to. One of the things I've always loved about listening to you speak and talk is that you often have good metaphors as you describe, basically, the disciple experience. And in something that I've read of yours, you talk about the experience of mortality as a group project. And I think, who likes a group project? Oh, not me. group projects are a little bit of a nightmare like who's in charge and people end up doing more work than others and I think that this is exactly why Zion often feels so out of reach either to the people that are the workers they're like I want to do more than my fair share of work and the people you know who don't want to do any work are like I don't want to participate And so I'm wondering if you could share with our listeners why you talk about it that way. Why is mortality a group project? Because I think this is linked to this idea of one heart, one mind in Zion. Yeah.
(13:46-17:10) Melinda Brown: We have to figure this part out. I think you're absolutely right. And I should lead by saying or begin the response by saying that I was the biggest hater of group projects of all time. I am so deeply introverted. I love to do things by myself. I love being alone. I don't even know what the word lonely means, basically, right? And it's taken me so much to get past that. Honestly, one of the things that happened, if I just can share a little personal experience that really turned the tables for me, was about six years ago when I was entering into the world of publishing for the first time. I had written this manuscript, I'd spent years researching and writing and all of this, but to actually take it to the collaborative level that is required in a professional publishing house, like Deseret Book, that was my experience, is it's so much collaboration. It was really uncomfortable for me at the beginning. It took a lot of learning and figuring out how to just roll with it and trust that it really would be a better product. And I'm forever grateful to the main editors that I was working with who just kept gently saying, you have to believe the product will be better. And truly it was, it was so much better. So like that was my little turning point there. But I think one of the key things I realized in that is that a group project requires us to give up control. You cannot be the boss of everything. Right? And so I think there's a sense of giving up control, which is really turning it over to the Lord, putting your trust there that he can handle the mind piece of it. You don't have to drive that. And humility, that you don't actually know everything. You know a lot, perhaps, but not everything. And we don't know what we don't know. And we all have blind spots. And so I think when, and this is a beautiful part of aging, it's one of the pieces I'm grateful for of aging, is that you get enough experiences to really give you solid, indisputable evidence that you don't know everything. And you need other people's perspectives and opinions. And for me, you know, that took almost 50 years to figure out that actually maybe group projects aren't such a bad idea. Maybe that's actually the whole plan of mortality. And I do think it's a law of mortality. The agency, while it feels individual when we talk about it as being individual, it has a very wide ripple effect. And the repercussions always go far beyond ourselves. And I think that is what kind of gets us toward the idea of systemic peace and Zion building. is putting the trust in the Lord and then having the humility to know that we can't do it by ourselves. We can't do it effectively without Him or without others. We actually need up and out. We need the cruciform shape of God's love to make this really work effectively.
(17:11-18:46) Patrick Mason: That's incredible. And I have to say, I feel your pain when it comes to handing your words over to other people. It's hard. All those precious little words and sentences and paragraphs. But yeah, that's been my experience as well. Let me ask you, Mindy, so it's, and this is really following up on that last point that you said, both the verticality and the horizontality of this, that I think most people would say, look, if it was about being of one heart and one mind with Jesus, like, I'm all in, right? Like, because I have just infinite trust in Him, like, you know, and like, Jesus, take the wheel. But Zion asked me to be in relationship, not just with Jesus, but with the person next to me, and with, you know, my ward member who drives me crazy, and with, you know, other people who I deeply disagree with. And especially in an individualistic culture like ours, that is all about self-empowerment, right? Not letting other people be the boss of you and all of these kinds of things. How do we start to think about Zion with other people? Not just with God and with Jesus, right? But with other people who are just as flawed as we are. And also without giving up our own sense of self, because I think that's the other fear too, right? How do I not just be rolled over and even abused in certain ways by coming into a deep relationship with other people?
(18:46-24:48) Melinda Brown: Yeah, yeah. Well, I think there are kind of two questions there, and I'll actually start with the second one first, because I think it's an easier, shorter answer. But I think we can look at unity as harmony, not unison. Right. And that's, I think, a really key distinction there. It's unfortunate that unity and unison have so much in common, word-wise, right? Because I think they're very different if we see it as harmony. And it's the same idea as balance, right? Like if you're on a tightrope, if you stand perfectly still, at peace, calmness, or whatever. You were falling. You were in a bad shape. You're about to crash. But it's the constant movement. It's almost like a dance. It's kind of a back and forth with leaning and this idea which really does relate to getting along with other people because there has to be give and take. I think ultimately a Zion relationship, a Zion-like relationship with anyone should feel reciprocal. It should feel a lot like friendship. It doesn't mean you don't have disagreements, that there are some moments of conflict, perhaps even contention as you work through talking about, you know, those crucial conversation type of things of, wait, but I don't like how you're doing that. And again, it goes back to my three-word definition there, that mutually beneficial. If at any moment somebody is feeling like, wait a minute, this feels very imbalanced and out of whack, Well, you probably veered off the Zion path and away from true peace because you're not feeling the back and forth. I mean, it should feel like a really satisfying game of ping pong or tennis where you're having these long rallies of back and forth and back and forth. and it's engaging. I think living a parallel life, I mean, take a marriage, for example, because that's perhaps the most simplified version. It's not simple, however, at all. It's hard, right? But if you're living a parallel life in a marriage, that's ultimately very dissatisfying. You want to be woven together. You need the knitting that King Benjamin talks about. We need our hearts knit together in love. because that's what makes it more fun, more engaging, and more like friendship, and it creates the space for the reciprocity of going back and forth. But then to kind of return to the first question about that of, you know, well, it's fine, I can cooperate with the Lord, no problem, it's these mere mortals around me driving me crazy, right? Yes, exactly, right? I think The gospel of Jesus Christ, which I would maybe clarify as being his way of living and loving, is so perfectly designed to give us the tools to do this. And this is kind of moving into where I put a lot of my focus the last several years in terms of studying and researching and thinking about the power of our temple covenants. and kind of reframing those as eternal principles of heavenly relationships. If we can recognize that those basic principles, and let's say if we're going to really boil them down to five key principles, you know, that we would call the first obedience. And perhaps we could expand that idea to loyalty and honesty with one another and commitment. There's some fidelity aspects there, right? Then you've got sacrifice. We might kind of clarify that as having an element of willing to invest in relationships, right? Then you have the whole idea of the gospel, the horizontal and vertical aspects of it, where we're reaching out to one another, that we're trying to lift. It's the gir of the Old Testament. the welfare project, you know. And interestingly, in the 60s and 70s, if you were to ask any general leader or apostle about how would they describe the law of the gospel that we covenant to commit to and embrace, it was all about the welfare system and reaching out to others. That's really where their emphasis was at that stage. That's shifted a little bit. That's another conversation. And then we have chastity, which I would define as an appreciation that all life is sacred, that every body is sacred, right? And that has huge ramifications in all social settings. And then you have consecration, which is really a a belief, an inherent sense that this way of living and loving is so profoundly impactful that you will do whatever it takes to share it with others and get them to embrace it as well through your example. And so, you know, if you look at those basic elements as, wait, if I embrace this, if I really get this and commit to it, this can bless every single relationship I have in my life. It will lift every relationship. That's huge, and that actually puts it back on you more than the mere mortals you're dealing with that are driving you bonkers on any given day, right? It's really about, okay, this is driving me a little bit crazy here. Which of the five do I need to put a little more focus on to help me come at this from a generous, unselfish perspective that might help lift then to the point that we can start to get some traction here? and get the ball bouncing back and forth a little more effectively between us.
(24:48-24:54) Patrick Mason: I love that. Thank you. What a great explication of what those five covenants mean. That's amazing.
(24:54-27:12) Jennifer Thomas: Yeah. As you were talking, I was just thinking about an experience I had earlier in December. So my husband and I were traveling, and we had the opportunity to attend a Christmas carol service in London. And it involved singing, and the carols were very familiar to me. There were harmonies that I knew by heart, right? And I'm a decent singer. But I found myself, the harmonies weren't harmonies that I, they were much more complex than the harmonies I was used to singing. And there were far more people involved in the harmonization than I was used to participating with. I'm traditionally used to singing those carols with three other parts of harmony, right? And harmonizing. And I really love the way you've described this, both in terms, and I think this relates to what you were talking about in terms of these temple covenants. Because I think what the Lord is always trying to ask us to do is to step up our capacity and our ability to harmonize, right? And what I was able to experience in that setting with thousands of people singing together in complexity and beautiful instruments and voices and trumpets and organs all adding to the complexity of this harmony was transcendent to me. but I was actually prepared to sing at that level. And so while I really enjoyed participating in it, I wasn't able to really engage to the degree that I would have liked to. And I've been thinking about that ever since because I, and I love the way you've brought this up because I think that what we're invited to in Zion with this one heart, one mind, and with this idea that you've talked about these covenants, is the ability, always God is asking us to level up. He's saying, hey Jen, you can sing by yourself or you could sing in harmony. And then Patrick's saying, okay, but what if there are people that sing in more complex harmony than you or want to introduce harmonizations that you're not familiar with? What if you're not fond of trumpets? Well, you kind of have to let go and allow for that complexity to come together. I just, anyway, just really love the way you described that because I'm just thinking about what I need to do spiritually to prepare myself to harmonize with others at a level beyond what I'm currently doing.
(27:12-27:39) Melinda Brown: What a great, what a great analogy. That's awesome. And, you know, as you were sharing that, I was thinking you could even take that to the next level. If you were to travel to somewhere in Asia, you might get some harmonies that you were so unfamiliar with. that it would kind of blow your mind, right? I mean, it would take practice and time to begin to appreciate, oh, like, yeah, this is brilliant. I love it.
(27:39-27:41) Jennifer Thomas: To even be able to hear them correctly, right?
(27:41-28:08) Melinda Brown: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, where that's somewhat foreign to some of us, that just reminds me of just a really funny connection point that my guess is you two might resonate with, but also some of the listeners. I just remember when Hamilton, the Broadway musical, took off, All the young people, like it clicked immediately. It sounded great to them immediately and they loved it. Their parents were like, what on earth? I can't even listen to this.
(28:08-28:10) Melinda Brown: But if you could just give it a chance.
(28:10-28:11) Patrick Mason: Why is George Washington rapping?
(28:12-28:29) Melinda Brown: I mean, it was like, oh, my word. I remember my husband saying, with the first exposure to the soundtrack with our kids, this is noise. This is just noise. And I was like, oh, please don't, honey. Try to be patient. There must be something we can find to share in this experience.
(28:30-29:04) Melinda Brown: And eventually, we all went to the Broadway show together because he and I had figured out, oh, actually, this is genius. I mean, it's a perfect example. If we don't know what we don't know, And we have blind spots. And so if we're not willing to open our mind to, hey, let's bring in more perspectives, it actually might enrich our lives immensely. I mean, really, truly, our world is better for the Hamilton musical, right? I think we've kind of all figured that out. But it took a while. And anyway, I love that. That's a great point. great analogy.
(29:04-29:17) Patrick Mason: One to extend the analogy. Yeah, I think I love it. Thinking about like other cultures and the way that they formulate music, or even in our culture, as part of broader American culture, like blues notes, right?
(29:17-29:17) Melinda Brown: Yes.
(29:18-29:49) Patrick Mason: dissonance that are just a little bit off, right, that actually introduce sadness and different emotional range than what we traditionally had in kind of European harmonies and so forth. So we have to be able to listen to, pick up on, and appreciate all the different tones and harmonies and everything that everybody is bringing. Otherwise, yeah, our Our hymn book, so to speak, is just too limited.
(29:50-30:02) Melinda Brown: Exactly. And all those things are always contingent on tension and resolution, right? Reconciliation. And then you move to tension again. I mean, that's what makes it compelling and fun to listen to any type of music.
(30:04-30:43) Jennifer Thomas: So let's talk about a little bit of how, so we've now framed for ourselves what the ideal is. We'd all be open to this. We'd all be able to instantly move into harmonizing and appreciating different ways of doing it. But I don't think that's naturally how we're wired. So What do you think? Are there hallmarks of the kind of symbiotic relationship that we could cultivate? Are things that we can cultivate in ourselves to allow us to harmonize with others and become of one heart with them? You know, what are some things that you would suggest that we can think about to change how we're doing things or thinking about spiritual issues so that we can be better able to harmonize?
(30:43-30:44) Melinda Brown: Yeah, yeah.
(30:45-33:57) Melinda Brown: Well, like I said before, I think there's so much we can gather from the temple worship experience that we can then take out the doors of the temple and immediately put to good use with everyone we interact with. For me, one of the kind of key words that has helped me, I think, move in the right direction on this over the last few years is generous. And for several years, that was like my word of the year. And I kept needing to just do it over again because I hadn't quite figured it out yet. But I knew that there was really something there for me. And, you know, I should give credit where credit is due. I watched this take shape in the life of my daughter-in-law as she and my son started to have children and immediately, I knew she was the best daughter-in-law I ever could have hoped for in a million years because she was so generous with her family and the life that they were creating in their home. She was so happy to send photos and FaceTime with us frequently and invite us to come and visit the kids as much as we wanted and just share. I mean right when, I mean there's that hard part of your nest emptying or your door opening and your adult children stepping away that is heartbreaking because there's some loss of your involvement in their lives. But to have a family member that will generously let you still participate, it was just hugely impactful. It really, really changed the way my husband and I interpreted all relationships and all always what our side of things are because we just adopted kind of the language of how could we be more generous in this moment? Is it with time? Is it with our patience? Is it with demonstrating and exhibiting that we've got our problems too, that hey, we're messed up too, let's all just get to a humble stance together. I just think any talent or skill or even idiosyncrasy that we're blessed with, we can share generously. And so I think that is one way. This year, my word is actually gentle because I also think if we add a layer of gentleness to every interaction, I think it will go a long way to helping us be patient with one another. And really, it isn't slowing down. Almost always a good answer just slow down a little it didn't have to be a race. Let's just enjoy whatever the current challenges appreciate it for what it is and Respect that the Lord's got this He's the head, he's the mind, we're digits or whatever, we're little corollary pieces. And if we're humble about it, we really can figure it out together and we'll be better for it. The result will be better by doing it together.
(33:58-34:23) Jennifer Thomas: So I will just pause to say, I love your idea about being generous with our weaknesses. It just, and I think that's so key to Zion, is that it's not just that we all walk in with our strengths, but we're generous in exhibiting to others. And I like using that word generous, not that I'm handing off my troubles to Patrick, but I'm willing to demonstrate that I have troubles, right, and that I have weaknesses. And I really, really like that.
(34:23-34:38) Melinda Brown: Yeah, I mean, it's vulnerability, really, in one sense. But generous is just such a positively connotated word that applies so much more broadly than we typically would think of it. So for me, that has been a game changer.
(34:39-35:23) Patrick Mason: Yeah, and I really like gentleness too. I'm thinking about, you know, the people of Enoch or the people in fourth Nephi. I mean, that just has to be one of the characteristics of those peoples. I don't know that the word appears in either of those texts exactly, but it's certainly implied in the sense of no contentions and disputations. Again, not that they didn't have disagreement, sort of that they weren't different, but there's a gentleness in the way and a generosity in the way that we can approach difference that makes all the difference in the world. So I think, yeah, putting those two things together, there might be a kind of superpower in that.
(35:26-35:51) Melinda Brown: That makes you capable of living in Zion, right? Yeah, I think so. And it puts the onus back on yourself to give a little more and to get out of the self-centered stance, the egotistical stance, and turn outward rather than inward. And it's that constant looking up and looking out, back and forth. It's that balance that's so key, too.
(35:52-35:53) Patrick Mason: Yeah.
(35:53-36:37) Jennifer Thomas: So I love that you, Mindy, have framed walking the covenant path as a public trail. And I think we tend to think about it as a personal thing, something, again, that is not public and communal. But I'd love to have you share with us what you mean about that and maybe broaden our perspective and help us be aware of how walking that path publicly can make us open to the needs and capacities and everything of others, bringing us away from Just, I think sometimes we think about the covenant path as just making us good. We have a good heart and we have a good mind, rather than leading us towards a process we are of one heart and of one mind. So I'd love to have you extrapolate on that a little bit.
(36:38-36:59) Melinda Brown: Yeah, well I think, you know, one thing we probably all learned more than we ever really wanted to in the last few years, the COVID years, was that isolation is just really not a happy way to live. We need each other, we need community, we need to be with other humans, right?
(36:59-37:00) Patrick Mason: Even for introverts?
(37:01-39:22) Melinda Brown: Yes, yes, truly, truly, even for introverts. There's a quote that I love so much. This is by John Wesley, one of the founders of Methodism. And it's just has really become dear to me as an introvert and an avid reader. He said, and he would write this in many of his personal letters and correspondence to people he loved, especially his siblings, He would say, but beware you do not… Oh, excuse me. But beware you be not swallowed up in books. An ounce of love is worth a pound of knowledge. That's a really big idea. To me, it's a constant reminder when we think we have what like today's goal is figured Actually, we might have the wrong goal in mind, right? Maybe we think the one job I have to do today is to, you know, finish this project, turn in that assignment, meet this deadline, whatever. Probably, in fact, the one job you have to do today is love. Love someone. The question is who or how many or how you're going to do that. And sometimes I think we kind of get our focus just a little bit out of whack there. And again, it's that we're being the mind. We think, nope, I know what I need. I know what today's job is. When in fact, maybe we're just, we just need to kind of squint our eyes, look a little blurry at it, like, oh, wait a minute, there's actually this other job that is perhaps the more important job today. And if we always see love as being the bigger job, You know, there's a place for self-love and self-care by all means. You know, we need to fill our cups so we have something to pour out. We need to put on our face mask first, right? That's the typical one. But ultimately, Love isn't love until it's shared, right? It's the sharing. Again, it's that back and forth, the reciprocity, the friendship element of it, which is such a key principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I mean, there's so much there that friendship is really a key doctrine that we embrace, and that requires interaction with others.
(39:23-39:44) Patrick Mason: Say more about that. Say, what do you mean by friendship? I mean, everybody hopefully has friends, right? Whether or not they are in the church or believe in Jesus or anything. So when you talk about friendship as a gospel principle, as a kind of necessary element of Zion living, what do you mean?
(39:45-41:03) Melinda Brown: Well, I mean, just to give it a few supporting statements, Joseph Smith called friendship one of the grand fundamental principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ, right? Much more recently, Elder Buckner gave a great talk focusing in General Conference on the ye are my friend statements that we hear Christ say over and over again. Dr. Andrew Skinner, who's a terrific researcher and writer, you probably know him well, Patrick, but he's written a lot about friendship and the idea that Our Heavenly Parents are giving us the opportunity to develop the skills of lasting friendship here in mortality with one another in order to exhibit how prepared we are to take it to the next level and use it in a much grander, more universal way of exaltation. That, you know, if we can't handle the basic steps of getting along with one another, well, then why would we want to be together forever? I mean, that's a good question, right? Yeah.
(41:03-41:07) Jennifer Thomas: And what would building on that even look like, right? Yeah.
(41:08-42:34) Patrick Mason: Yeah, and I like, yeah, friendship is so powerful. Um, I think because there's a sense that we, we choose each other, but sometimes our friends also drive us a little bit crazy. Uh, so, so, so they're not the sameness and, but, but, but we, we were friends with them because we appreciate the things about who they are and what they bring to the relationship. I know that I'm better because of my friends, because I'm in a relationship with them. And I think the other thing about friendship, which is so important, actually in the Doctrine and Covenants, it talks about, in section 98, it talks about that we should relate to our nations and our government as friends and the relationship of friends. And that's so interesting. It's so different than being subjects, partly because friends can call each other out. Yes, yes. Like my best friends for Christmas, we had some of our very best friends in the world spend the week with us. And they know me well enough. I know they care about me deeply. And so they can actually say things to me and see things in me that if I heard somebody else say it, I'd get my back up a little bit and everything. But when they say it, it actually motivates me to do better and be better.
(42:34-44:46) Melinda Brown: Yeah, for sure. And then you think, too, that it's a place to practice, right? It creates these multiple laboratories where you just get to practice repenting and forgetting and saying you're sorry and accepting apologies and moving on and letting things go. All these things that are really required for getting along and just look at how great the Lord is at letting things go and moving on and accepting apologies, right? He's really honed that skill and he's our ultimate exemplar in that. And you can see that in all your circles. You know, if you look at your life as kind of a bullseye diagram, it's in your personal most intimate relationships, say with a spouse or partner, your family members who live under your same roof, it's your extended family, it's your neighborhood, it's the communities you live in, it's your congregation. All those layers provide such great laboratory space for you to experiment in and it's much more effective if There's some buy-in in the relationship right out of the gate where it's where you've got some barriers to not necessarily entry but exit where There's reason for them to stick around and try a little longer, you know Instead of just walking up and like that's it. I'm finding a new ward. I don't like you and Right? And in that vein, our geographic design for our ward congregations, in my opinion, is positively divinely designed brilliance. I mean, it's just, it makes such a difference to not be able to say, yeah, I gotta look for a new pastor. this bishop, it's not doing it for me. Rather, the real job is, I'm going to be patient with this bishop. It might be my family's turn down the road at some point. I would like people to show patience to us, right? Like, all of this sort of gentleness and generosity, it comes back to those two ideas, I think.
(44:48-46:00) Jennifer Thomas: So I also appreciate the fact that at the root of friendship, there just always is an element of chosen affection, right? You found something in someone else that you find attractive or interesting or that can augment your life. And as I think about this in the context of Zion, it's just so much easier to kind of be in harmony with someone that I have a baseline affection for. And it doesn't, like Patrick says, mean that I don't recognize their quirks or that I don't necessarily see their faults, just as they see mine. But I love the way you've talked about friendship as a core element of the gospel, because I think it is this call out to us to be affectionate with one another, to feel that sense of just pleasure and finding care in one another. And in my best relationships in the church that have even been a little bit hard, If I can just find something to kind of love and feel affection about that person, it just often just smooths so many of the other sticky things over.
(46:01-47:24) Melinda Brown: Yeah. Right. It's back to the body of Christ metaphor that if you can recognize, wait, they, they have a really unique skill. Like that's crucial to our community. And I don't have that. I need them. I can't do this without them because they've had experiences that have shaped them to a different size and configuration than me and we can't fill the same voids. We have different puzzle piece shapes, right? And sometimes you have to search for that. But it is possible, and I would guess that Joseph Smith, I think, would agree with this, that anybody could be your friend. You could figure out a way to be friends with anybody. I think of dear, sweet Melissa Inouye's wisdom on this topic, and she, once I remember, spoke about how she was part of a group that the rule was before any peace-building work could be done, they had to go have a meal together. And, you know, that's been such a good reminder to me. If I'm not feeling particularly inclined towards a certain person, well, I probably just need to go get a Diet Coke with them or whatever, right? Break bread, yeah. I just need a chance to visit. Break bread, right? Exactly, yes. Companionship, literally. So, yeah, I think that's huge.
(47:25-47:47) Patrick Mason: Yeah, and ideally that should be—that comes back to an idea that you mentioned early on, the idea of communion. I do think our practice of communion, while it's beautiful in many ways, has become so individualized. right? But the idea is that we're sharing a sacred feast together.
(47:47-47:49) Melinda Brown: Absolutely. Absolutely.
(47:49-48:29) Patrick Mason: Just like Jesus did with his disciples. We've lost some of that, and I understand part of it is like, how do you deal with that with 300 people in the room, and you know, et cetera, et cetera. But at least for us to think about it that way. I remember a few years ago when I was in a bishopric, so I would sit on the stand facing the congregation. That was actually a very different experience of taking the sacrament than being in the congregation and sort of focusing inward, as we're often encouraged to do. Like, I think it's good to reflect on my life for the past week, the next week, you know, how can I do better? But even that's like me, me, me, right?
(48:29-48:30) Melinda Brown: For sure.
(48:30-48:36) Patrick Mason: It's very different to like face the congregation and like, and say like, we, we, we.
(48:36-50:49) Melinda Brown: Yeah, you know, you might find this interesting, and you've probably heard or read this before, but, you know, there's this ancient book called the Didache that's like the original handbook, basically. It's like the church handbook for the early Christians, right? And there's this one part in it that, oh, I love this so much, and I love the connection points that kind of brings the temple into the Sunday worship experience. It says, let no one who has a quarrel with a companion join you until they have been reconciled so that your sacrifice may not be defiled. And it's talking about partaking of the emblems of the Lord's Supper. And, you know, we don't often think of it that way, that, wait a minute, look around you and make sure you don't have an issue or problem with anyone here, because this is about to be a communal experience that we're having. You know, I think it's also interesting, for about the last five years I've been teaching a temple class on campus through a stake calling, but at BYU. And I'm always intrigued, in one of our first hours together, I asked them to talk about the similarities and differences between temple worship and Sunday worship, and then to look at symbols. And I'll point to the sacrament table that is there in the room that we usually meet in, and I'll say, tell me about this symbol. What is this symbol? And it is astounding to me how many times, and I've probably taught it, the curriculum, 15 times now, nobody ever says table. They talk about an altar, a tomb, I mean, so many other things. They go all over the place, but table is a hard one to pull out from them. And again, you look to our Christian siblings, they see it as a table. They talk about it all the time as a table, and it's the feast. It's coming together to partake and to break bread. And those are some elements we probably benefit from drawing out a little bit more clearly too. ourselves and our children, everybody, our congregations, that it's meant to be shared in a sharing friendship kind of way.
(50:49-51:45) Jennifer Thomas: Well, if you don't mind, this is actually a good launching point, I think, for a personal question I'd like to ask as we kind of get closer to the end of this conversation. The examples we have, Patrick listed them, of a Zion society were built around people when we know it was successful, particularly in 4th Nephi, also in Moses as it's described to us. These are people that had an understanding of Christ and his sacrifice, right? And they had a desire to follow his teachings. So there was this desire for that kind of sameness at their heart. And I'm wondering if you could share with our listeners how you have achieved that. How do you personally develop the kind of relationship with Christ that will allow you to, like you said, set aside the individual elements of your personality that might get in the way of participating in Zion.
(51:47-53:29) Melinda Brown: Yeah, well, I mean, it's kind of everything we've talked about, I think, recognizing that I know far less than I once thought I did. Right. That's maturity. Right. Figuring that out. having greater trust in the Lord, which is easier done when you've gathered all sorts of evidence that he actually is in charge and does a really good job being in charge. And for me personally, it has been very much temple worship based because I've spent several years really diving deep and writing about temple learning and temple understanding and temple worship. And, you know, working on my master's degree at Duke was huge for that, to really focus on all of these prevalent symbols that we see all around us that can be interpreted as reminders of just how much our relationships matter. To me, it's been a refocusing and a recognition that everything is about relationship. It really doesn't matter how much I learn, how much I study, how much I know. If I can't apply it practically and usefully to building a collaborative relationship slash friendship with anyone, but especially the people I am beholden to, like my family, my congregation, my neighbors, then I'm not moving much in the Zion direction. And so that's helped me refocus it a lot.
(53:29-54:04) Patrick Mason: Let me ask one last challenging question, because I'm with you. I'm all in on all of this. But can we build Zion with people who don't want to build Zion with us? Can we build Zion with people who don't share the same core convictions that we do, whether it be as Christians or maybe we interpret our Christianity so differently, right, that it seems like we're not even part of the same religion? How do we bridge those very real differences?
(54:06-56:53) Melinda Brown: Yeah, you know, I think we absolutely can. 100% yes, I say to that. I think of the light of Christ, which we know everyone has as, you know, that deepest ember in their soul. And I think if we can find the common ground with another, which I have yet to meet anybody who isn't concerned about the well-being of themselves and their loved ones. Once we find that common ground, we might come at it from different angles, but ultimately we're pursuing the same thing. Again, I direct us to the image of the cruciform shape of God's love. If we see it as upward and outward, we may come to it as Christians from a very vertical perspective where we prioritize loving God and then the natural secondary outflow of that is loving others. But there are a lot of non-Christians who would come at it the other direction, horizontally, where they have a natural affinity for creation or their fellow humans, and ultimately it draws them toward the vertical. I think of loved ones in my family who have stepped away from practicing religion in any organized fashion, and I see in them a phenomenal amount of love. But it probably leans horizontal, where mine probably leans vertical. But together, we come to the same place. It's the same intersection point, right? Which is really at the heart of that light of Christ and God's love for us. That that's where the seeds of love start. And everyone, in my experience, yearns for love. And they had that little bit there, wherever they're at, that it's reachable. And maybe it'll take time. Again, gentleness and generosity, you'll get there. But find the common ground to start with. I think it's absolutely doable. But for me personally, I should say, I certainly focus on a more local setting, like Patrick and Jen, you both are so much more globally minded on this than I am. I'm still in the very small circles of my bullseye. I have a long way to reach out for my ripple effect, but that's where we start. We start with ourselves and reaching out towards others and make progress that way.
(56:53-57:24) Jennifer Thomas: I love the way you talk about gentleness and generosity bringing people in, but I'm also realizing that if I, no matter how much knowledge I might have of the gospel or how much I might profess my allegiance to it and to Christ, if I'm not able to exhibit that gentleness and that generosity and the goodness that He did towards others, then in fact, I'm not there. Like, I might think I am, but I'm not. And that I might be prioritizing the knowledge, the pound of knowledge over the ounce of love, right? Yes.
(57:25-57:27) Patrick Mason: But I love that pound of knowledge so much.
(57:27-57:28) Jennifer Thomas: I know. I'm so great.
(57:28-57:29) Melinda Brown: I'm going to hold on to that one.
(57:30-57:42) Jennifer Thomas: Yeah, I'm going to hold on to that one for sure. So we have one final question for you, which is simply where in all of the craziness of your life, because you're a busy person that accomplishes a lot, where do you go and how do you find peace?
(57:43-57:45) Melinda Brown: Well, my glib answer is in my fitness room.
(57:47-57:50) Melinda Brown: That is not, I mean, that is not a deep answer at all.
(57:50-59:32) Melinda Brown: But it is revealing because it's evidence of my true introverted, natural human sense, that nature of me that I'm always working on rising above. But I think the reason I love that is I'm very habitual about that. I like my private time. I take plenty of time every morning. And for me, it's a time to collaborate between body and spirit. So it's exercise, but at the same time, I'm reading and I'm listening to very inspiring thoughts, all sorts of knowledge of all assortments. You know, sometimes it's this podcast, sometimes it's others, sometimes it's great books from all fields. But But truly, I leave that room on good days, and most of the time it is a good day as I'm leaving that fitness room, ready to start my day. Like, because that gets me ready then to go out and put it to use. That knowledge I've gained in there, the inspiration I felt, does very little good if I don't get out now and live my day and share it in some way with my husband, my children, my friends, my neighbors, whatever. That's where it becomes effective. So really the deeper answer is I find peace in living Christ's way of loving and living, his gospel. It's really through those eternal principles of heavenly relationships that we chip away at building heaven on earth. That's really the ultimate plan, is that Zion must start here. We can't postpone that for later. That's not the design. That's not the goal.
(59:33-59:38) Jennifer Thomas: Well, thank you. We really, really appreciate you having joined us today, Mindy. It's delightful. Oh, my pleasure.
(59:41-01:00:00) Patrick Mason: Thanks everybody for listening today. We really appreciate it. We just want to invite you to subscribe to the podcast and also to rate and review it. We love hearing feedback from listeners, so please email us at podcast at mweg.org. We also want to invite you to think about ways that you can make peace in your life this week. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.
(01:00:05-01:00:21) Jennifer Thomas: Thank you for listening to Proclaim Peace, a proud member of the Faith Matters Podcast Network. Faith Matters holds expansive conversations about the restored gospel to accompany individuals on their journey of faith. You can learn more about Faith Matters and check out our other shows at faithmatters.org.